Q. and A.: Xujun Eberlein on the Legacy of the Cultural Revolution
作家徐军谈文革：对文革保持沉默更多是自愿的
Half a century has passed since Mao Zedong set in motion the Cultural Revolution, his chaotic attempt to purge the Communist Party and Chinese society of compromise and "capitalist" tendencies. The movement unleashed widespread violence, some of it led by "Red Guards," young students who organized themselves into militant units to enforce Mao's revolutionary vision. Some of the most intense fighting was in Chongqing, where in recent days some residents mourned at China's only surviving sizable Red Guard cemetery.
毛泽东发动文化大革命已经过去半个世纪了，当年他试图肃清共产党，肃清中国社会的妥协和"资本主义"倾向。那场运动带来了大范围的暴力，其中一些由"红卫兵"牵头。为了贯彻毛泽东的革命理想，他们建立了武装组织。在重庆发生了一些格外激烈的战斗，那里有如今中国仅存的成规模的红卫兵墓地，最近还在接受着当地居民的凭吊。
Xujun Eberlein, a writer who grew up in Chongqing and is now based in Boston, is the author of "Apologies Forthcoming," a collection of stories about the Cultural Revolution. In an interview, Ms. Eberlein, who is working on a memoir, reflected on how that time affected her and her family.
作家徐军(Xujun Eberlein)在重庆长大，现居波士顿，她是关于文革的英文短篇小说集《即将到来的道歉》(Apologies Forthcoming)的作者。在采访中，正在撰写回忆录的徐军回忆了那段时间对她和家人的影响。
Q. What is your family background, and how did the coming of the Cultural Revolution affect your family?
问：你的家庭背景是什么？文革的到来对你的家人产生了什么影响？
A. My mother came from a poor peasant family in Zhongxian, a riverside county on the Yangtze, and my father was an orphan from Chongqing. They both became underground Communists in the 1940s while Chongqing was under Nationalist rule.
答：我的母亲出生于长江边上的忠县，家里是贫穷的农民。我的父亲是重庆人，是一个孤儿。20世纪40年代国民党统治重庆期间，他们成了共产党的地下党员。
When the Cultural Revolution began in 1966, my mother was an elementary school principal, my father was a midranked party cadre, and I was finishing the fourth grade. I witnessed my mother being perp-walked in a dunce cap by her students, and my father being "struggled" against by his colleagues. From the beginning they, like most all their close friends, were very confused by what the Cultural Revolution was really for, and they had no choice but to muddle through the chaotic time.
1966年文化大革命开始时，我的母亲是一所小学的校长，父亲是共产党的中层干部，我快要读完小学四年级。我目睹了母亲被她的学生们戴上尖帽子游行，我的父亲也被他的同事"批斗"。一开始，他们和自己大多数的好朋友一样，不明白文革到底是为了什么，他们别无选择，只能被动乱的时代裹挟向前。
My big sister was a middle-school student, and she became a Red Guard in the "August 15" faction. In July 1968, she drowned while commemorating Mao's 1966 swim in the Yangtze. My family never really recovered from that tragedy. By the end of the Cultural Revolution, my mother's belief in Mao and Communism was fundamentally shaken, while the change dawned much more slowly for my father, likely because he had everything to thank the party underground for in his impoverished youth, and he had become much more invested in the Communist cause.
我的姐姐当时上中学，在"八一五"派系斗争中，她成了一名红卫兵。1968年7月，她在纪念毛泽东1966年畅游长江的活动中溺水身亡。文革快结束时，母亲对毛泽东和共产主义的信念发生了彻底的动摇。而我的父亲很晚才出现这种变化，很可能是因为他年轻时非常贫穷，他的一切都是地下党给他的，曾经更加投身于共产主义事业。
But he, too, was disillusioned in his later years. For my generation, generally speaking, at the end of the Cultural Revolution, the spiritual landscape had become a desert in China.
但是，父亲到晚年也感到幻灭。我这一代人，生活在文革的末尾，当时中国的精神世界已经成为一片荒漠。
Q. How did your parents deal with the grief then, and how does your family commemorate your sister now?
问：那么你的父母如何对待失女之痛？你的家人现在还悼念你的姐姐吗？
A. I don't think I'm capable of describing those agonizing years in a few calm sentences. I'm working on a memoir, and the Cultural Revolution is part of it. One thing I want to say is that my memoir will not be victim literature. We were all participants at the time, whether one admits or denies it.
答：我觉得几句平淡的话无法形容当时的悲痛。我正在写一部回忆录，其中一部分就是文革。我想说的一点是，我的回忆录不会成为受害者文学。我们当时都是参与者，不论你承认与否。
Q. Have you visited the Red Guard cemetery in Shapingba in Chongqing?
问：你有没有参观过重庆沙坪坝的红卫兵墓园？
A. Many times. After my sister died in 1968, her schoolmates said they would move her grave to the Red Guard cemetery, but they never did. I read in my sister's diary how she and her schoolmates buried their Red Guard leader Ai Shuquan in the Shapingba Park cemetery, so I went to look for Ai's tomb in 2002. I didn't think I would find it, but I did. It was a few days after the Qingming festival [when Chinese tend family graves], and I saw wilted flower bouquets here and there, but none at Ai's. My sister had written that Ai was from Tianjin, so perhaps he had no family members in Chongqing. I remember feeling like crying when I found his tomb encroached upon by weeds.
答：去过很多次。1968年姐姐去世后，她的同学说，他们会把她的遗体放入红卫兵墓园，但是他们后来没有这样做。我在读姐姐的日记时发现，她和她的同学把红卫兵领袖艾淑全埋在沙坪坝公园墓地，所以2002年我去找艾淑全的坟。没想到竟然能找到。那是清明节过后的几天，到处都是凋谢的花束，但是艾淑全的坟上没有花。姐姐在日记中写道，艾淑全来自天津，所以或许他在重庆没有亲人。我发现他的墓上长满了杂草，当时很想哭。
Q. It seems there were once many more cemeteries around Chongqing for people killed in the Cultural Revolution. What happened to them?
问：重庆为在文革期间去世的人修的公墓好像曾经还有几座。那些公墓后来怎么样了？
A. One that I still remember was at the Chaotianmen port, in the flower garden in front the port bureau's office building. I remember wreaths with white paper flowers on mounds of dirt. Then one day, maybe a year or two later, the dirt mounds were flattened and the flower garden returned, as if nothing had happened.
答：我还记得朝天门码头那里有一个墓园，就在港务局办公楼前面的花园里。我记得坟堆上插着花圈，上面是白色的纸花。后来有一天，可能是一两年后，坟堆被夷平，那里重新又成了花园，好像什么都没发生过一样。
All the cemeteries then were for members of one faction, "August 15," because it was the faction in power then. The dead from the opposite faction, "rebel to the end," had no cemetery.
当时所有的公墓都是为"八一五派"的成员修的，因为八一五派是当权的一派。和八一五派对立的"反到底派"的成员死后没有墓园。
Q. Why was Chongqing so violent during the Cultural Revolution?
问：重庆在文革期间的暴力冲突为何这么严重？
A. The many weapon factories certainly contributed to the large scale of Chongqing's "armed struggle," and another arguable factor might be local character. In ancient times, Chongqing was part of the Ba kingdom. Ancient books use words like "valiant" and "combative" to describe the Ba people.
答：那里有很多生产武器的工厂，这肯定是重庆发生大规模"武斗"的原因之一，另一个可能的因素或许是地方特征。在古代，重庆属于巴国。古书上说巴人"勇猛"、"善战"。
Yet some other significant factors have often been overlooked by outside historians. Chongqing is where the hit novel "Red Crag" is set, a name I believe no mainland Chinese adult doesn't know. The novel, set in 1940s Chongqing, eulogizes the underground Communists' heroic struggles in "concentration camps" said to be co-run by Americans and the Chinese Nationalists.
但外部历史专家往往忽略了其他一些重要因素。畅销小说《红岩》是以重庆为背景的。我相信在大陆，这部小说无人不知。以40年代重庆为背景的《红岩》颂扬了地下党员在据说是由美国和国民党合办的"集中营"里进行的英勇斗争。
"Revolutionary heroism" had always been an important part of official education in the 17 years of the Mao era leading up to the Cultural Revolution, but during the 1960s the novel "Red Crag" was more influential than any textbook. I wouldn't be surprised if the boys and girls who fought each other to death aspired to be heroes like those in the novel.
在文化大革命前的17年里，"革命英雄主义"一直是毛泽东治下中国的官方教育的重要部分。但在60年代，《红岩》的影响力比任何教科书都大。如果那些年轻男女拼死斗争是因为渴望成为小说里那样的英雄，我一点都不吃惊。
Another overlooked factor is the lingering damage of the great famine from 1959 to 1962. Sichuan, which included Chongqing then, had the largest number of starvation deaths, estimated at one-seventh of the province's population. Lots of anger during the Cultural Revolution came from that painful history, and suddenly the causes became clear as the Red Guards dug up undisclosed party documents and put them on big-character posters and fliers.
另一个被忽略的因素是1959至1962年间的大饥荒遗留下来的影响。那时候，重庆还属于四川。四川饿死的人是最多的，据估计占全省总人口的七分之一。文革期间的很多愤怒都源自那段令人痛苦的历史。随着红卫兵找出了未公开的党内文件，并把它们写在大字报和传单上，大饥荒的原因突然变得清楚了。
Because there was no school to go to, I spent lots of time on the streets reading those things. Once, I saw a flier glued to a wall, with a bold red title: "EXTRA GRAND GOOD NEWS!" It said medical experts had scientifically proved that Chairman Mao would live to be 130 to 140 years old. A few moments later, this flier was covered by angry comments: "Extra grand nonsense! Venomous attack! Chairman Mao is immortal! Long live Chairman Mao! Long, long live Chairman Mao!"
因为没有学上，我很多时候都是在大街上看这些东西。有一次，我看到墙上贴着一张传单，红色标题"特大喜讯"几个字加粗了。传单上说医疗专家已经用科学的方法证明，毛主席会活到130到140岁。几个月后，这张传单被愤怒的评论覆盖了："特大废话！恶意攻击！毛主席万寿无疆！毛主席万岁！毛主席万万岁！"
But they also uncovered things we wouldn't have known otherwise. I remember how shocked my parents were when they learned that it was the government — and in Sichuan, the southwest region party secretary Li Jingquan in particular — not a natural disaster, that was responsible for the famine. We learned the truth during the Cultural Revolution, but those who grew up later still don't know it.
但也有一些事情，如果不是他们发现，我们便无从得知。我还记得父母得知应为那场饥荒负责的是政府——具体说，在四川就是西南局第一书记李井泉——时，他们多么震惊。我们是在文革期间知道这个真相的，但之后出生和长大的人依然不知道这件事。
Q. What are the biggest misunderstandings about the Cultural Revolution?
问：对文革最大的误解是什么？
A. I once did a little poll on a U.S. writers' website, asking what people thought China's Red Guards were. The answers were all in the line of "pretty much the same as the Hitler Youth." At the other extreme, I've seen Chinese youngsters, high school and undergrad students newly arrived in the U.S. to study, who simply refused to believe the crazy things that happened during the Cultural Revolution. Their typical argument was that, "my parents would've told me about those things if they were true."
答：我曾经在美国的一个作家网站上做过一个小调查，问人们对中国红卫兵的看法。所有答案基本上是"很像希特勒青年团(Hitler Youth)"。另一个极端是，我看到刚到美国来留学的中国年轻人，有高中生也有本科生，他们完全拒绝相信文革期间发生的那些疯狂的事情。他们常见的理由是，"如果是真的，我父母就告诉我了。"
Q. Why is the Cultural Revolution such a sensitive subject, even 50 years later?
问：即便已经过去50年了，文革这个话题为什么还这么敏感？
A. The silence on the Cultural Revolution has been more voluntary than enforced, and it is because the memory of the time is very painful to the victims and shameful to those who victimized. Adding to the emotional complexity is the fact that many people took turns in both roles — victims and victimizers. Parents don't pass their experiences of the time to children. This, coupled with the void in textbooks, results in the ignorance of the younger generations. This is where the danger lies: Because the lesson has not been learned by the later generations, the disaster might be repeated in the future.
答：对文革保持沉默更多的是自愿的，而非被迫的。因为那段记忆会让受害者感到非常痛苦，让施害者觉得羞愧。让人们对文革的感情更加复杂的是，很多人轮流扮演了两种角色，既是受害者，也是施害者。父母不会向孩子讲述那个时期的经历。这个原因，连同教科书对这段历史的留白，造成了年轻一代的无知。这也正是危险的所在：因为后代并未吸取教训，将来这种灾难可能会重演。
Two years ago, this collective silence was briefly broken, when quite a number of ex-Red Guards courageously came out to apologize for what they'd done in their fanatic youth. It looked like the prediction I made in 2008 through my book's title, "Apologies Forthcoming," might finally come true. But that hope was short lived. That voice was quickly gone, like a wisp of smoke, and has not been heard again.
两年前，这种集体沉默被短暂地打破过。当时，相当多当过红卫兵的人勇敢地站出来，为自己在狂热的青少年时期的所作所为道歉。看上去，就像是我2008年通过"即将到来的道歉"这个书名所作的预测终于成真了一样。但很快，这个愿望就破灭了。道歉的声音很快便消失了，就像一缕青烟，外界再也没听到这种声音。
储百亮(Chris Buckley)是《纽约时报》驻京记者。
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翻译：纽约时报中文网
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時報看中國
作家徐軍談文革：對文革保持沉默更多是自願的
儲百亮 2016年4月5日
毛澤東發動文化大革命已經過去半個世紀了，當年他試圖肅清共產黨，肅清中國社會的妥協和「資本主義」傾向。那場運動帶來了大範圍的暴力，其中一些由「紅衛兵」牽頭。為了貫徹毛澤東的革命理想，他們建立了武裝組織。在重慶發生了一些格外激烈的戰鬥，那裡有如今中國僅存的成規模的紅衛兵墓地，最近還在接受着當地居民的憑弔。
作家徐軍(Xujun Eberlein)在重慶長大，現居波士頓，她是關於文革的英文短篇小說集《即將到來的道歉》(Apologies Forthcoming)的作者。在採訪中，正在撰寫回憶錄的徐軍回憶了那段時間對她和家人的影響。
問：你的家庭背景是什麼？文革的到來對你的家人產生了什麼影響？
答：我的母親出生於長江邊上的忠縣，家裡是貧窮的農民。我的父親是重慶人，是一個孤兒。20世紀40年代國民黨統治重慶期間，他們成了共產黨的地下黨員。
1966年文化大革命開始時，我的母親是一所小學的校長，父親是共產黨的中層幹部，我快要讀完小學四年級。我目睹了母親被她的學生們戴上尖帽子遊行，我的父親也被他的同事「批鬥」。一開始，他們和自己大多數的好朋友一樣，不明白文革到底是為了什麼，他們別無選擇，只能被動亂的時代裹挾向前。
我的姐姐當時上中學，在「八一五」派系鬥爭中，她成了一名紅衛兵。1968年7月，她在紀念毛澤東1966年暢遊長江的活動中溺水身亡。文革快結束時，母親對毛澤東和共產主義的信念發生了徹底的動搖。而我的父親很晚才出現這種變化，很可能是因為他年輕時非常貧窮，他的一切都是地下黨給他的，曾經更加投身於共產主義事業。
但是，父親到晚年也感到幻滅。我這一代人，生活在文革的末尾，當時中國的精神世界已經成為一片荒漠。
問：那麼你的父母如何對待失女之痛？你的家人現在還悼念你的姐姐嗎？
答：我覺得幾句平淡的話無法形容當時的悲痛。我正在寫一部回憶錄，其中一部分就是文革。我想說的一點是，我的回憶錄不會成為受害者文學。我們當時都是參與者，不論你承認與否。
問：你有沒有參觀過重慶沙坪壩的紅衛兵墓園？
答：去過很多次。1968年姐姐去世後，她的同學說，他們會把她的遺體放入紅衛兵墓園，但是他們後來沒有這樣做。我在讀姐姐的日記時發現，她和她的同學把紅衛兵領袖艾淑全埋在沙坪壩公園墓地，所以2002年我去找艾淑全的墳。沒想到竟然能找到。那是清明節過後的幾天，到處都是凋謝的花束，但是艾淑全的墳上沒有花。姐姐在日記中寫道，艾淑全來自天津，所以或許他在重慶沒有親人。我發現他的墓上長滿了雜草，當時很想哭。
問：重慶為在文革期間去世的人修的公墓好像曾經還有幾座。那些公墓後來怎麼樣了？
答：我還記得朝天門碼頭那裡有一個墓園，就在港務局辦公樓前面的花園裡。我記得墳堆上插着花圈，上面是白色的紙花。後來有一天，可能是一兩年後，墳堆被夷平，那裡重新又成了花園，好像什麼都沒發生過一樣。
當時所有的公墓都是為「八一五派」的成員修的，因為八一五派是當權的一派。和八一五派對立的「反到底派」的成員死後沒有墓園。
問：重慶在文革期間的暴力衝突為何這麼嚴重？
答：那裡有很多生產武器的工廠，這肯定是重慶發生大規模「武鬥」的原因之一，另一個可能的因素或許是地方特徵。在古代，重慶屬於巴國。古書上說巴人「勇猛」、「善戰」。
但外部歷史專家往往忽略了其他一些重要因素。暢銷小說《紅岩》是以重慶為背景的。我相信在大陸，這部小說無人不知。以40年代重慶為背景的《紅岩》頌揚了地下黨員在據說是由美國和國民黨合辦的「集中營」里進行的英勇鬥爭。
在文化大革命前的17年里，「革命英雄主義」一直是毛澤東治下中國的官方教育的重要部分。但在60年代，《紅岩》的影響力比任何教科書都大。如果那些年輕男女拚死鬥爭是因為渴望成為小說里那樣的英雄，我一點都不吃驚。
另一個被忽略的因素是1959至1962年間的大饑荒遺留下來的影響。那時候，重慶還屬於四川。四川餓死的人是最多的，據估計佔全省總人口的七分之一。文革期間的很多憤怒都源自那段令人痛苦的歷史。隨着紅衛兵找出了未公開的黨內文件，並把它們寫在大字報和傳單上，大饑荒的原因突然變得清楚了。
因為沒有學上，我很多時候都是在大街上看這些東西。有一次，我看到牆上貼着一張傳單，紅色標題「特大喜訊」幾個字加粗了。傳單上說醫療專家已經用科學的方法證明，毛主席會活到130到140歲。幾個月後，這張傳單被憤怒的評論覆蓋了：「特大廢話！惡意攻擊！毛主席萬壽無疆！毛主席萬歲！毛主席萬萬歲！」
但也有一些事情，如果不是他們發現，我們便無從得知。我還記得父母得知應為那場饑荒負責的是政府——具體說，在四川就是西南局第一書記李井泉——時，他們多麼震驚。我們是在文革期間知道這個真相的，但之後出生和長大的人依然不知道這件事。
問：對文革最大的誤解是什麼？
答：我曾經在美國的一個作家網站上做過一個小調查，問人們對中國紅衛兵的看法。所有答案基本上是「很像希特拉青年團(Hitler Youth)」。另一個極端是，我看到剛到美國來留學的中國年輕人，有高中生也有本科生，他們完全拒絕相信文革期間發生的那些瘋狂的事情。他們常見的理由是，「如果是真的，我父母就告訴我了。」
問：即便已經過去50年了，文革這個話題為什麼還這麼敏感？
答：對文革保持沉默更多的是自願的，而非被迫的。因為那段記憶會讓受害者感到非常痛苦，讓施害者覺得羞愧。讓人們對文革的感情更加複雜的是，很多人輪流扮演了兩種角色，既是受害者，也是施害者。父母不會向孩子講述那個時期的經歷。這個原因，連同教科書對這段歷史的留白，造成了年輕一代的無知。這也正是危險的所在：因為後代並未吸取教訓，將來這種災難可能會重演。
兩年前，這種集體沉默被短暫地打破過。當時，相當多當過紅衛兵的人勇敢地站出來，為自己在狂熱的青少年時期的所作所為道歉。看上去，就像是我2008年通過「即將到來的道歉」這個書名所作的預測終於成真了一樣。但很快，這個願望就破滅了。道歉的聲音很快便消失了，就像一縷青煙，外界再也沒聽到這種聲音。
儲百亮(Chris Buckley)是《紐約時報》駐京記者。
歡迎在Twitter上關注@ChuBailiang。
翻譯：紐約時報中文網
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